2023 August 2

Daily news wrap-up

Minister's mysterious trip to Meghri || Iskander vs Azeri airport || Armenia importing "Indian HIMARS" & French weapons || $100m for domestic mil. industry || Draft never stopped during war || Samvel Babayan's plan || Nagorno-Karabakh's secret negotiation || Little-known clashes before July
by ar_david_hh

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wartime defense minister Davit Tonoyan was questioned by War Commission

Tonoyan has been in jail for two years. He is accused of knowingly delivering "bad" missiles, an accusation he denies.

... your location on the eve of the war?

TONOYAN: I was in a NATO country to discuss the import of weapons. On the 27th I arrived in Kazakhstan to also discuss a weapons deal. Because of COVID, it took me 3 hours to find a jet to return. 

I encountered difficulties during the flight. My jet was forced to enter Armenia through Georgia. I landed on the 28th and visited the "bunker" headquarters in Nagorno-Karabakh.

... describe the bunker, who can get there?

TONOYAN: The bunker has multiple rooms including areas for outsiders without a security clearance. There were also special rooms with information designed to mislead the opponent. The room where secret decisions were made was not accessible to outsiders. You may have seen images of outsiders in the bunker but they weren't present during classified meetings.

... who is Patron Davo?

TONOYAN: A magician who used land and air routes to make weapons appear in Armenia.

... Turkish airforce

TONOYAN: Turkey sent its F-16 jets to Azerbaijan in July 2020 for military drills. They remained in Azerbaijan afterward. And the fact they were stationed so close to Nagorno-Karabakh was concerning.

Every day, around 4 jets would spend 4-8 hours in the air and fly just 25 km from Nagorno-Karabakh. They had a rotation schedule. The jets were flying so close that they would occasionally trigger the air defense systems. We could shoot them down but Russia discouraged any "provocations".

... describe Turkey's involvement in the war

TONOYAN: They were a direct participant, not even a "proxy". Their F-16 jets exposed our entire air-defense system. Turkish airforce is considered quite developed even within NATO because they were one of the first to develop a unified command & intel system within the airforce. This, in turn, was connected to NATO's command & observation system. What that meant for our army can be discussed behind closed doors.

... Armenian drones

TONOYAN: We entered the war with only 6 aircraft-style drones. Nothing substantial was accomplished by the domestic mil. industry.

... is it true that Israel planned to sell drones to Armenia?

TONOYAN: No. There were attempts by private entities to make arrangements but it didn't work because Israel had very large weapons contracts with Azerbaijan.

... did you modify the Serj-era weapons purchase plan to lower the priority of drones and TOR?

TONOYAN: No. This perception was formed due to a lack of knowledge. No weapons have "substituted" others, and no weapons were given "priority" over others. There was an effort to *supplement* the [Serj-era] list, to acquire more than what was planned. [corraborates with claims made by Artsrun Hovhannisyan and Pashinyan]

For example, the number of air-defense units that we acquired was 20% greater than what was envisaged under the original plan. 

... OSA-AK air-defense

COMMISSION: Is the opposition wrong in their accusations that the Pashinyan administration came and suspended Serj's plans to acquire certain weapons? 

TONOYAN: Again, nothing was removed from the list, we only added new items. We bought multiple OSA-AK units because there was a sudden opportunity to buy them. They performed very well during the war. They were an add-on item. 

The original plan did not envisage OSA-AK because their price was too expensive at the time. We later saw an opportunity to buy them as a package at a steep discount.

... what about TOR air-defense units?

TONOYAN: Similarly, we acquired several TOR units during a period when *fewer* TOR purchases were envisaged under the original plan. This was made possible through skillful negotiations and access to funds. 

... is it true that an unprecedented number of army vehicles were imported before the war?

TONOYAN: I don't know if it's "unprecedented" but the state had placed orders for a large number of vehicles. Some of them arrived before and during the war. We encountered significant import barriers even while importing vehicles. Their shape and color were an issue. 

... electronic warfare

COMMISSION: Before the war, why did you order the dissolution of all electronic warfare units in every single Army Corps, and disassemble their modern equipment?

TONOYAN: CoGS recommended that after detailed discussions. All I can say is even that "modern equipment" had a subpar performance. Not enough units, and ineffective. Maybe because of insufficient quantity, maybe because we couldn't utilize them properly. 

COMMISSION: You also gave the order to dissolve the central battalion tasked with anti-aircraft warfare. Our SPN-30 and SPN-40 units were supposed to combat drones, F-16 jets, or E-7 control aircraft units. Instead, they were removed from combat duty and destroyed. These were basically the older versions of Krasukha. 

TONOYAN: The import of newer units was underway. The department tasked with that process can provide details.

... cutting the reserves

COMMISSION: Before the war, why did you eliminate the main reserves of the 1st Army Corps in the direction of Goris and Kapan?

TONOYAN: [Former] CoGS [Artak Davtyan] recommended it. We eliminated those reserves and formed tens of special forces units in their place. That's much better than having those reserves "on paper".

COMMISSION: [New] CoGS Onik Gasparyan regretted that decision.

... did we need to purchase SU-30SM jets?

TONOYAN: Yes. The ratio of balance between Armenia and Azerbaijan in that department was zero to X. We had nothing. We also had no capability to carry out guided precision strikes on targets located far away. We've never had this before. SU-30SM was a purchase for our future.

The decision to acquire SU-30SM was originally made in 2015 but we didn't have the funds at the time. We ended up buying them [after 2018] with resources allocated from *outside* of the state budget. The Government report mentions that nuance but doesn't clarify what those "non-budgetary resources" mean. I can discuss that behind closed doors. *[Wasn't it something about using funds recovered by anti-corruption efforts, paid by former leaders?]*

The acquisition of SU-30SM did not prevent other weapons from being purchased. [It was earlier revealed that Armenia wanted to buy TOR units and drones but couldn't find a seller who could deliver them or deliver quickly enough, prompting the government to search for temporary alternatives without suspending the pending TOR/drone contracts.]

Additionally, we signed a Su-25 modernization contract with Russia that was supposed to take 3 years. I don't know if this process is underway or has been suspended due to the war in Ukraine. 

... myth: draft was suspended prematurely

Context: Pashinyan has denied issuing an order to suspend the regular draft to replace it with volunteers. It was against the law to draft men who had just completed their mandatory 2-year conscription service, so Pashinyan said he used a "loophole" to recruit those men by inviting them as volunteers instead. Thousands of men, including Pashinyan's son, ended up joining as volunteers. It was later revealed and confirmed by an independent figure that the Armenian armies had amassed over 117,000 soldiers.

COMMISSION: Is it true that the official draft was stopped?

TONOYAN: No. The draft was never stopped. I think this manipulation is tied to the process of recruiting volunteers. There were serious issues with the draft which we can discuss behind closed doors. The main issue is that it was inherited from the 1946-1960 USSR, which had a different demographic and battlefields. This is why we launched a process to implement the idea of Active Reserves in Armenia.

COMMISSION: Were the reservists properly trained and harmonized with the regular army before being sent to the frontline?

TONOYAN: It can take months to retrain reservists properly. The entire war lasted only 44 days, so draw your conclusions. But we did have a training process, which was made longer over time. 

... how many deserters and draft evaders did we have?

TONOYAN: Let's talk behind closed doors. I believe that had the war continued, we could overcome this issue because the relevant legal structures were finally starting to properly address the issue. I'm not saying the war should have continued.

COMMISSION: Why did we have many deserters?

TONOYAN: To overcome fear the soldier must be trained and prepared. Not enough preparatory work could be done because everything was unfolding quickly. 

... resilience & threat assessment

TONOYAN: According to our comprehensive calculations, which were done on multiple occasions, the Armenian army could withstand an attack by an enemy 3x its size. 

On the 3rd day of the war, considering Turkey's involvement, the Government was advised to try to negotiate a ceasefire. None of the military's prior threat assessments [2008-2010 and 2016-2018] considered a scenario in which Turkey would attack from the east. At the time of the [2016-2018 threat assessment], the geopolitical situation was different [likely refers to Russia-Turkey relations in Syria].

Our military ties with Russia also made us believe that Turkey itself would not be a direct threat. When Turkey deployed its jets in Azerbaijan's Ganja airport after the drills in Nakhijevan, I held several meetings with representatives from 12 NATO member states in an attempt to neutralize the Turkish threat. 

... bulletproof vests

COMMISSION: Were you satisfied with the state of the army at the time of your appointment as MOD? You were a ranking MOD official for years before your appointment. It turned out we were in poor shape: Improper control system for mobilized troops; lack of a digitized database of reservists; insufficient number of helmets and vests, which led to mild injuries becoming deadly and costing many lives; critically low stockpile of missiles as of May 2018 as revealed by Pashinyan. 

TONOYAN: I wasn't satisfied or dissatisfied with the work. The army is a living organism, it evolves and improves. The May 2018 assessment told us we could withstand an attack by a 3x greater force.

As for the vests and helmets, we had enough for active-duty soldiers but not for that many reservists. This is why our 2018-2019 report mentioned the need to purchase them. Importing vests and helmets is as difficult as importing a tank because of the same logistics/transfer restrictions. 

COMMISSION: Why not import "civilian" bulletproof vests designed for cops? I understand those aren't designed for military use but wouldn't that be better than having reservists with sweatpants and tees? [conversation is interrupted]

... why wasn't the army brought to the highest state of combat readiness on the eve of the war?

TONOYAN: I believe the CoGS issued certain orders. It was in accordance with the level of perceived threat.

COMMISSION: What was the level of perceived threat? Give us a % number. 

TONOYAN: I can't give a specific number. It's either "strongly likely" or "fully likely". The threat was "strongly likely" after the July clashes. 

COMMISSION: Before the war you met with Russia's MOD Shoygu, while CoGS Onik met Russia's CoGS Gerasimov. Did your Russian colleagues tell you a major war was *unlikely* to happen?

TONOYAN: Let's talk about this behind closed doors. They asked us not to make provocative moves. 

... July 2020 clashes weren't the first

TONOYAN: Our soldiers performed exceptionally well. I'll disclose more details. A few months before the July events there were other clashes on the AM-AZ border, regarding the need to strengthen Armenia's energy security. It was mostly the same army units that participated. It wasn't Armenia who publicized these events. The tactical-level clashes in July were overblown into strategic-level news by Azerbaijan. 

COMMISSION: Do you believe Armenia "provoked" the September war?

TONOYAN: We maybe "delayed" it or "expedited" it, but did not cause it. We were forced to take action *within* our borders. The response by Azerbaijan and Turkey was very disproportionate.

... Crapstitutional reforms

COMMISSION: You said we had issues with the command system.

TONOYAN: Many legal uncertainties regarding the roles of officials and institutions during war and peace. 

... where is MoD supposed to be located during the war?

TONOYAN: In the Defense Ministry headquarters. On October 21-29, I was in Meghri under the instructions of Pashinyan. Only now do I fully understand why he sent me there. As you know, Pashinyan recently revealed the existence of a ceasefire proposal that would have stationed Russian peacekeepers in Meghri [to give a corridor to Azerbaijan. Pashinyan rejected the offer. It was around October 19. The war continued.]

COMMISSION: What exactly were you ordered to do in Meghri?

TONOYAN: Our troops had sustained heavy casualties, the mayor of Meghri and the head of the Meghri military unit were wounded, and we were in the process of forming a special command system for the Southern region. My arrival had a positive psychological effect on the population and troops. 

I also witnessed how the Russian Border Guard positions were bombed. We were able to establish a serious plan of cooperation with them. I'm very grateful for that.

... why didn't Armenia use Iskander to destroy the parked drones and jets in Azeri airports as soon as possible?

TONOYAN: "Sooner or later" is a decision made by the command. These missiles were used whenever possible and whenever allowed, and whenever they were authorized from the appropriate geographical location. *[cough Russia cough?]*

COMMISSION: Was Armenia NOT ALLOWED to use certain types of weapons?

TONOYAN: Let's discuss that behind closed doors. Hmmmm.......... but let me put it this way: We could use them but there were limitations with the geography. *[Azerbaijan possibly lobbied Russia to prevent the use of Iskanders against the territory of Azerbaijan. Perhaps they could only be used against Azeris who entered Nagorno-Karabakh? This could explain why it was used in Shushi.]*

COMMISSION: Did Russia "pressure" Armenia to agree to certain conditions so the war could end ASAP?

TONOYAN: Let's talk behind closed doors. But do know that the war stopped only because Russia brought its peacekeepers to Nagorno-Karabakh, not because of "ceasefire agreements".

COMMISSION: Why didn't Russia bring its peacekeepers sooner? 

... can Armenia acquire weapons from NATO while being a member of CSTO?

TONOYAN: Yes. We have always imported weapons from NATO members. CSTO was never a dealbreaker.  The real issue is with the "compatibility" of NATO weapons with our systems. Preparatory work is necessary. 

[full,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL4hdL3gLls) [source,](https://www.civilnet.am/news/746187/2020-ի-պատերազմը-պետությունը-դիմավորել-է-ընդամենը-վեց-աթս-ով/) [source,](https://www.azatutyun.am/a/32529814.html) [source,](https://www.azatutyun.am/a/32529381.html) [source,](https://www.armtimes.com/hy/article/265707) [source,](https://www.armtimes.com/hy/article/265703) [source,](https://www.armtimes.com/hy/article/265695) [source,](https://www.armtimes.com/hy/article/265692) [source,](https://www.armtimes.com/hy/article/265690) [source,](https://news.am/arm/news/773507.html) [source,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL4hdL3gLls?t=7703)

interview with Nagorno-Karabakh opposition leader Gen. Samvel Babayan || Secretly agreed to remove tanks || Rubern Vardanyan's ambitions || ...

Context: Babayan has been in favor of launching direct talks with Baku without a third party to discuss humanitarian topics including the use of the unpopular Aghdam road in addition to the Lachin Corridor. Babayan said that during the 1st Karabakh war, after Azerbaijan found itself in a dire state, they sent a letter to Armenia "begging" to use a similar road for humanitarian purposes. Babayan criticized his fellow opposition figures and Arayik Harutyunyan's government for engaging in "traitor talk" and avoiding responsibility and harsh realities. *"If you do not take 'unpopular' steps now, you will be forced to implement them under worse terms after a few months."*

REPORTER: Azerbaijan has escalated the situation by abducting a Nagorno-Karabakh citizen who was traveling to Armenia for surgery. The man is accused of "war crimes". 

BABAYAN: As I've said earlier, Azerbaijan has a list of 300 individuals they want to arrest. When I suggested holding direct negotiations to discuss the establishment of mutual trust, that was one of the reasons, but some morons described it as a selfish attempt by me to save my own skin. They didn't take it seriously. 

Now they will gradually receive more "surprises" because of their inaction. I've submitted a 5-point document to the President, describing what needs to be discussed with Azerbaijan. That was one of the 5 points, the so-called "amnesty". My proposal was ignored. Now we have the first arrest.

REPORTER: What is the solution? Will they return him or imprison him for decades?

BABAYAN: The solution is to launch serious talks with Baku and discuss the issue of every captive/hostage in one large package. There needs to be an amnesty so we can close this subject.

REPORTER: Nagorno-Karabakh government and opposition parties are saying Azerbaijan will use the direct talks as an opportunity to promote the "integration" of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians into Azerbaijan.

BABAYAN: I don't care what they are saying. What are *we* doing to resolve the situation? Want to fight? How, against what, and where? Show me your plan. You've got no plan. But as soon as someone presents a plan, you call him a "traitor". This is not a winning strategy.

REPORTER: Your critics in Nagorno-Karabakh call you a traitor for supporting the opening of Aghdam road.

BABAYAN: I've never mentioned the Aghdam road specifically. I said we must create a point of cooperation on the Askeran border so we can conduct regular trade. You *are* going to do this eventually. You claim not to want it but you *will* be forced to in 2-5 months. And when that happens, those who are against this idea today must be held accountable for subjecting the Nagorno-Karabakh population to hunger for months.

There is no other realistic option. The naysayers also don't have any solution, they have a slogan: "We must fight now as we did during the 1991 blockade". Listen, buddy, in 1991 we had kolkhoz, sovkhoz, lots of food reserves, and even aircraft flights delivering goods. That's how we survived in 1991. None of that exists today. Don't be delusional.

I presented my negotiation plan and invited public figures to discuss and improve it. In return, I got called a "traitor". Fine. I'll step aside then. You have the full freedom to act. Go *"fight until the end"* as much as you want. You will eventually understand that you have failed and you are on the brink of surrender like the ruling party ARF surrendered in August 1992. ARF surrendered and admitted they were incapable of ruling anymore. The emergency GKO committee was formed to create a new governing system. 

It's the same situation today. You have all sorts of people claiming to be the best candidate for negotiations with Azerbaijan. We have Ruben Vardanyan who said he came to Nagorno-Karabakh only recently, has never participated in prior wars, and would therefore be a great candidate for a negotiator, "they will negotiate with me." Fine, go negotiate. But Azerbaijan called him a Russian spy instead. 

Unable to negotiate, Vardanyan claims that if *he* can't negotiate then *no one else* should be *able to*. Vardanyan doesn't want any negotiations to take place. As an Armenian person, I demand an explanation from him. Vardanyan doesn't care about the people of Nagorno-Karabakh, he is there to inflate his personal image.

President Arayik and Sec.Con. Vitali Balasanyan spent 2 years and 9 months negotiating with Azerbaijan after the war. They discussed and resolved some issues. They even agreed to remove weapons from Nagorno-Karabakh, tanks, and other weapons. A schedule was developed to remove 56 tanks. I don't want to reveal everything. At least don't call others a traitor after having done all of that.

Do you really think there were no direct talks with Azerbaijan all these 2 years and 9 months? Russian [peacekeeping chief] acted as mediator. They met twice in Khojalu and several times before that. They addressed the [presumably joint use of a northern road in Nagorno-Karabakh] and issues relating to villages. Lots of topics that I won't disclose.

REPORTER: Did Arayik and Vitali agree to remove weapons during one of these talks?

BABAYAN: Yes. They agreed to remove 56 units of equipment within 2 months.

REPORTER: Was it removed?

BABAYAN: The first half of those 56 units were already removed. As far as I know, the second batch has not been removed.

REPORTER: You suggested using a border point in Askeran to conduct trade with Azerbaijan. The critics fear it can be used to promote the "integration" process. 

BABAYAN: We have a plan that touches upon 20 major topics that we must discuss with Azerbaijan. We must discuss that plan among ourselves, improve it, then send a negotiator, who will not be allowed to deviate from that plan. This is the first phase. It's humanitarian in nature, for trust-building.

If Azerbaijan displays a constructive stance and we see that they are serious about establishing trust, then we can proceed to the second phase, to discuss the political aspect of the conflict. Don't focus on whether Azerbaijan will demand their flag installed here or there, it's not time yet, we are yet to discuss confidence-building measures.

REPORTER: Isn't it obvious that we cannot build trustworthy relations with Azerbaijan? 

BABAYAN: No. It's possible. If we try and fail, if Azerbaijan refuses, only then we can confidently claim it's impossible. 

REPORTER: Will Azerbaijan agree to discuss those 20 topics?

BABAYAN: We'll send it to Baku in written form. They are free to amend and send it back. If there is a mutually acceptable part we can hold negotiations to resolve the pending issues. It is all about making civilians' lives easier. If they reject even this, then we go for another round of war.

REPORTER: What if Azerbaijan presents only one topic: integration?

BABAYAN: If you watch Azeri and international news, everyone was at first talking about "integration", but they have suddenly shifted the language to "confidence-building". 

Do you remember how Aliyev went from demanding a "corridor" to clarifying himself that he never actually meant a "corridor"? Are you sure you understand the real definition of "integration"? How do you know their definition of "integration" isn't something acceptable, like closer economic ties with Azerbaijan?

Azerbaijan will never listen to the world. They have their own strategy. You either fight or negotiate. Choose one. The world isn't going to rescue you. Go protest as much as you want. Nothing will happen.

If you want to fight, then at least do one of the following:

1) Gain the status of an international subject via UN's Chapter 7 so Azerbaijan can't treat you as an "internal problem".

2) As the legal successor of this region, as the actor who made you part of Azerbaijan during the USSR, Russia must answer for this situation and ensure physical safety.

3) Challenge Azerbaijan's claim over Nagorno-Karabakh by bringing up the legal violations in the UN. Nagorno-Karabakh was originally declared as a disputed territory by the Nations League and wasn't recognized as part of Azerbaijan. But the Nations League's successor UN, despite the presence of the same ethnic and other issues on the ground, recognized it as part of Azerbaijan, in violation of its own rules. Armenia must submit a letter to challenge the UN's decision and point out the fact that this violation has since led to 2 wars in the region.

So if you want to struggle for independence, at least do one of those three. Nothing will come out of your [President's] protests in Stepanakert. We tried that unsuccessfully in 1988. That strategy doesn't work.

REPORTER: Will Azerbaijan use force against Nagorno-Karabakh?

BABAYAN: At least not at this stage, but things change rapidly around the world. A lot depends on us. We can have a favorable outcome if we work.

REPORTER: Azerbaijan won't even allow the food trucks to enter Nagorno-Karabakh. Is it even possible to live peacefully with them?

BABAYAN: Azerbaijan wants us to buy the food from Azerbaijan (not import it from another state) and send it to Nagorno-Karabakh via Aghdam road. So tell me, did you enjoy your 20-year-long belly rub and the squandering of public resources that made all this possible? 

REPORTER: [unintelligable]

BABAYAN: Ex-president Serj Sargsyan and others talk a lot these days. What have they done for 20 years? We lost the war because they hid the issues in the army. Serj and [newly elected] Pashinyan ignored my suggestions about weapons acquisitions. I told them to either 1) buy enough weapons specified by me, 2) seek a mandate for a major power to enter Nagorno-Karabakh, or 3) accept any concession proposed by the OSCE Minsk Group. They ignored all three.

We don't have a functional state today. Look at how things are handled in Nagorno-Karabakh. They catch a random guy from the street and appoint him as a minister. The guy doesn't admit that he lacks governing skills. He [State Minister Gurgen Nersisyan] is busy yelling at tomato sellers on the street for pricing their goods above the legal caps. The guy is the head of the government. He is protesting in front of the Red Cross office with 40 others. This is us now. Why are we criticizing others?

REPORTER: What is Nersisyan supposed to do?

BABAYAN: Govern the state. They were supposed to properly distribute fuel so villagers could deliver food to cities. They have more than enough fuel for all these cars in Stepanakert but not enough for farmers? It's a result of a lack of skills to manage resources.

REPORTER: Why did the president of the Nagorno-Karabakh Parliament resign?

BABAYAN: 1) He has health issues. 2) It's mostly a political decision. They have decided to replace him with someone from ARF, to grant ARF more powers. It's a terrible idea. They are going to further destabilize the situation with that move. Besides that, ARF only has 3 MPs, we have 9, and the other has 16. What's the point of ARF agreeing to hold this position? The decision was made by an agreement between the new and old leaders [of Nagorno-Karabakh]. Apparently, they want to play with the population a little bit more. Okay, go on and play.

REPORTER: Do you mean ex-president Bako Sahakyan and others are working together?

BABAYAN: Yes. They have one goal: humiliate our population as much as possible, as long as they get to keep their lives. 

REPORTER: Is the Armenian government doing enough to help Nagorno-Karabakh?

BABAYAN: The governments of Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh appear to have a strategy. I'm not familiar with the details and the steps that are being taken, but the government of Nagorno-Karabakh doesn't complain about the Armenian government that much. I'm not familiar with the content of their discussions.

REPORTER: Pashinyan says he doesn't have a mandate to decide Nagorno-Karabakh's fate. Is that problematic?

BABAYAN: Of course not. Big brother Armenia to little brother Nagorno-Karabakh should be like Turkey to Azerbaijan. The problem is, the little brother [Nagorno-Karabakh government] is hesitating to act. This is where the problem is. We must correct the mistake that began in 1999 [when Nagorno-Karabakh was removed from the negotiation table]. 

We must sit down and discuss our issues with Azerbaijan. It doesn't matter if we lost the war. We have been elevated from an object to a subject. If we negotiate skillfully, things will work out. 

[source,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0U-6V9kgAM)

interview with a military industry expert Gor Amatuni

REPORTER: Have you witnessed any progress in the development of Armenia's domestic military industry after the war?

AMATUNI: Yes, many positive changes. It's no longer the "hell" that it used to be. Big improvements at the Military Industry Committee, and smaller improvements in the Defense Ministry in terms of ease of working with them.

REPORTER: Describe some of the changes.

AMATUNI: Inventors and scientists are being heard and invited for meetings. "We were finally able to reach someone knowledgable," they say. There is a systemic approach now. Before, the manufacturers were producing whatever they wanted or could. Now, the system describes the manufacturers how their product will be implemented and in conjunction with what other products.

REPORTER: You said the military industry still has issues with the Defense Ministry. Describe it.

AMATUNI: Mainly bureaucracy. Certain individuals within the Ministry, not the entire ministry, are corrupt. They hinder the process. There are times when we present our product that's better and cheaper than what they import, but they refuse to accept ours because it's easier for them [to skim by forging the import records]. 

REPORTER: What limitations does our domestic industry have?

AMATUNI: A small country like Armenia cannot produce weapons on its own, we need to partner with international players, and we do. Our military industry must produce AND import. We have partnerships with several states: India, Greece, Cyprus, France, etc.

REPORTER: Indian press was excited that a foreign state [Armenia] has finally signed a large-scale weapons contract. But do we have a problem with delivering those weapons to Armenia?

AMATUNI: The deliveries are successful despite some difficulties. Items that cannot be delivered in one piece are being delivered piece by piece. Do know that we are importing weapons not just from India.

REPORTER: From where else?

AMATUNI: Several states, including a NATO state. Let's not open the parenthesis for now.

REPORTER: Is Armenia's membership in CSTO not an issue for the NATO state?

AMATUNI: There are NATO countries that want to help strengthen Armenia. There are always ways to import technologies, visible or invisible. The NATO country in question is France. Not everything is ideal yet but things are moving forward now. [Last month we learned that Defense Minister Papikyan visited France to discuss military cooperation. Pashinyan later described his visit as "successful" but didn't reveal details]. 

REPORTER: Are these steps helping restore the military balance in the region?

AMATUNI: Our #1 opponent in the region is Turkey. Obviously we are not as powerful as them but the goal is to be able to make war too costly for your opponent by being able to conduct strikes critical for them. We are working towards that.

REPORTER: But isn't our #1 opponent Azerbaijan?

AMATUNI: Azerbaijan is nothing without Turkey. We would have torn them into pieces if it wasn't for all the assistance from Turkey. I don't make such claims without evidence. In reality, several states are working against us, including Russia today. So we must develop our domestic military industry to turn Armenia into a hedgehog. Touch me and you'll be stung.

REPORTER: What else can you tell us about the cooperation with France?

AMATUNI: When people hear "weapons" they often only think of a gun that shoots at you. But there is a lot more than that. France is the strongest state in the EU. Today, steps are being taken to "cooperate" with them, it's not just about receiving aid. There are serious efforts to cooperate with France, Greece, Cyprus, etc.

REPORTER: Any efforts to train our soldiers in France?

AMATUNI: France could send a few experts to Armenia, we don't need to send our soldiers there. Modern training is conducted with digital joysticks, not Soviet-style spetsnaz training. One guy with a joystick could kill a battalion's worth of enemy troops. There is some progress in this area, too. 

REPORTER: On paper Russia and CSTO are allies but our army leaders have been visiting NATO states lately. What does that mean?

AMATUNI: CSTO has never helped us. The only thing we received from them was corruption. They corrupted the army built by Vazgen Sargsyan instead of strengthening it. It is being corrected now. It's a difficult process.

I meet with many unit leaders on the front lines. They tell me that today we have things that we've never had before.

We've been warning our citizens not to videotape and share footage from the front lines. Azeris use them to gather intel that they didn't possess. There were videos of our drones being flown around, drones that aren't weak. We also have certain robotic [or possibly automated] technologies on the front lines today. The process is moving forward.

REPORTER: It's been claimed that in 2021 the Armenian army tried to avoid border clashes at all costs due to the state of weakness, but lately they've been actively resisting and often successfully. What has changed?

AMATUNI: A few months ago Azeris attempted a provocation in Vardenis direction. We responded with a counterstrike and obliterated their positions. I personally know the men guarding that line. Yes, we have progress, and things are improving on a daily basis. 7-8 months from now our counterattacks could become devastating. We just need 8 more months to do what hasn't been done all these years.

While we were spending $400m on weapons annually, Azeris were dumping $4 billion on it. Their military budget surpassed our entire budget. This is the gap we are trying to fill today. We still have so many terrible shortcomings in the army today, but the process to reform it has begun. 

REPORTER: For 20 years the government told us that seniors and teachers had to endure low pensions and wages so that our army could be strong. So how come both the pensions were low and the army was weak?

AMATUNI: The army was a cash cow for politicians and generals. Is that news? 

REPORTER: Do you support the opposition's anti-Pashinyan struggle?

AMATUNI: I do not take politicians seriously unless they also offer reasonable alternative solutions. Some of them want Armenia to fight another war now. How are you going to fight a war under current conditions? Will you be on the frontline? At least Pashinyan is a realist. The hurrah-patriots don't mind it someone else's son to dies in the war. We need time to prepare for war.

REPORTER: Is a major war a possibility at the moment?

AMATUNI: There is a strong possibility of a war against Nagorno-Karabakh, it will most likely happen. Unlikely against Armenia. 

REPORTER: Russia accuses Armenia of making it impossible for peacekeepers to act by "recognizing Nagorno-Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan". 

AMATUNI: That's just an excuse. The only difference between Serj/Kocharyan and Pashinyan is that former leaders were doing that behind closed doors while Pashinyan says that publicly so Armenia won't be perceived as an aggressor state. You will not be an aggressor state if you then announce that the population of Nagorno-Karabakh has the right to self-determination under UN law. 

REPORTER: Russia took the money but never delivered the weapons. How can we get it back?

AMATUNI: Might as well write it off as a loss. Their betrayal began before their struggles in Ukraine. Nothing was preventing them from delivering weapons to Armenia in 2020-2021.

REPORTER: After the April 2016 war the media outlets allied with President Serj published propaganda claiming that Russia delivered Iskander systems to Armenia to restore the balance of power. 

AMATUNI: The best Iskander can do is partially destroy a 5-story Khrushovka apartment complex. If there are 100 residents, 70 will survive.

REPORTER: The Armenian public was told it can blow up Baku.

AMATUNI: Exactly. There is nothing special about Iskander, especially since they gave us the most outdated type.  

I have a friend who gave the coordinates of targets in Ganja airport and paid around €30,000 to conduct a strike with Iskander. The missile didn't reach the airport, it struck a residential building. That's totally unacceptable. Civilians should not be injured.

REPORTER: Why didn't the missile reach the airport?

AMATUNI: 1) They gave us an old Iskander. 2) We weren't in full control of the missile.

REPORTER: How does it work? We buy Iskander but still have to rely on Russia to control the missiles?

AMATUNI: Why does this concept surprise you? Did we not pay $200m and get jackshit in return? What do you think happened to the newly purchased Su-30SM jets? Why were they MIA during the war?

REPORTER: We didn't have compatible missiles.

AMATUNI: Not just that. We even had pilots but the control system didn't belong to us. Armenia and Russia had formed a unified air defense network which was presented as something hugely positive and reassuring. They stubbed us in the back.

[source,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Ug2j0cM6I) [source,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZX3O10sjtw)

Armenia is buying "Indian HIMARS" rocket launchers

It was [announced last year](https://www.reddit.com/r/armenia/comments/xrjtmu/sep292022_france_wanted_to_deploy_un_peacekeepers/) that Armenia is interested in purchasing several types of weapons and ammunition from India worth $260m. The most notable one is the Pinaka rocket launder. Armenia will become the only foreign country to own them. Pinaka comes in 122mm and 214mm variants. The former is closer to GRAD, while the latter is closer to Russian URAGAN, or American HIMARS as some have noted.

Last week Azerbaijani press released an unconfirmed video allegedly showing the transportation of multiple Pinaka units to Armenia. Baku sent a note of protest to New Delhi.

... why Pinaka?

1) It's available for purchase.

2) It's highly mobile. Can shoot-and-scoot.

Armenia is buying mobile weapons to address the threat of Azeri drones. Pinaka needs 3 minutes to prepare and launch a strike, and 2 minutes to GTFO. It fires 12 rockets in 44 seconds. The range of this model is 38 km. 

... how many Indian artillery batteries does Armenia have so far?

Over 10 batteries, with each battery having 6-12 rockets in it. Armenia's old D-30 howitzer is a "joke" compared to the new ones. 

[source,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OMVh57dJbo) [source,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZX3O10sjtw&t=1445s)

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Link to original report and comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/armenia/comments/15g1wq7/ministers_mysterious_trip_to_meghri_iskander_vs/